Does speaking in tongues still exist?
Growing up in the Pentecostal church gave me a front-row seat for the spiritual gift of tongues. Never did I know it was such a highly debated issue throughout the church until I left the church some years later; I thought it was the norm. Of course this was the same church that never clued me in on church history either (like the fact it even had one).
The majority of charismatic churches today will believe something like this about the spiritual gift of tongues (my church believed all of them):
- The baptism of the Holy Spirit is a separate event from confessing Jesus Christ as Lord and speaking in tongues is the evidence of this second baptism of the Holy Spirit (doctrine of subsequence)
- Tongues is not an actual language, but a personal, private prayer language between one’s heart and God (otherwise know as glossolalia)
- Anyone who does not receive the gift of of tongues is incomplete in Spirit, this event is something that completes or certifies you as a Christian
- The gift of tongues is still relevant today, and is for everybody
- Speaking in tongues helps to usher the Spirit of God down into a place; that it provokes God’s Spirit
All of the above are completely false and there is no evidence in Scripture that suggests any of it is true.
My experience with tongues
The legend of tongues went deep in my church. In youth group we would hear stories of times when a person would randomly stand up in the middle of a church service and start speaking in tongues and a missionary visiting from wherever would recognize it as their country’s native language and would promptly interpret afterward. The stories became greater and greater like a grandfather who extends his arms wider and wider when telling that ole’ fishing story. Tongues carried with it an anticipation of spiritual mystery and excitement.
On one occasion the entire youth group started to speak in tongues. The church saw this as an outpouring of the Spirit onto it’s youth. I participated in this, but I knew better even at that age (these disappointments ultimately led to my departure). Nothing came over me and took control of my vocal chords. I simply mimicked what I had heard everyone else do. I wanted to be part of the crowd; I didn’t want to look like I was somehow the only one who missed receiving this gift. I never once felt pressed to the ground and I never once buckled my knees or had some sort of spiritual out-of-body experience when I received the “baptism of the Holy Spirit”. I even remember my little girlfriend trying to teach me how to speak in tongues during the occasion. It was all a farce, a hoax, bred and harbored by a denomination that to this day has no biblical backing for their doctrine and continues to function out of their euphoric experiences.
At one point the church had brought in a revivalist; a man who toured churches who was hired to bring revival. That night I found myself kneeling in the middle of a crowd of people laying on the floor (the only one upright in a sea of prostrate congregates) with my arms wide open, eyes closed and begging God for the authentic baptism of the Holy Spirit. It never came. I stood up, walked straight out the service and decided I would never beg for it again. It wasn’t long after that I decided to leave the church altogether.
Not once did I ever feel apart from God aside from what the elders were teaching me concerning the spiritual gifts, faith-healing and mysterious experience. It was all a mirage.
The true biblical gift of tongues
The title of this post asks if the gift of tongues still exist which implies they once did. And in fact they did exist. The Bible speaks about them in the books of Mark, Acts and 1 Corinthians. The real gift of tongues is an actual language, not unidentifiable gibberish – we’ll see this as we explore the Scripture.
And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover. (Mark 16:17-18)
Mark is talking specifically about the apostles and the time in which they carried out the great commission (the apostolic age). We know that these verses are not talking about all Christians within or after because of 2 Corinthians 12:12 and Hebrews 2:2-4. Furthermore the books of Acts verifies all the signs and wonders being performed by the apostles with the exception of drinking poison. There are no documented accounts of any Christian today performing the same signs and wonders that were gifted to the apostles.
And divided tongues as of fire appeared to them and rested on each one of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance. (Acts 2:3-4)
both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians – we hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God. (Acts 2:11-12)
Acts 2 is the poster-child for the charismatic church’s stance on tongues. It tells the story of the upper room where God baptized with the Holy Spirit as promised in John 20:22 (not a second baptism of the Holy Spirit altogether). The disciples in the upper room were waiting on God, there was nothing they could do to “bring the Spirit down” or provoke God to do so. No one there sought the Spirit or asked for the gifts of tongues. Christians were not seeking the baptism, it was promised to them by God. Nowhere in the book of Acts do we see Christians seeking an experience, but instead waiting on what was promised.
In the book, Charismatic Chaos, John MacArthur suggests that if what took place at Pentecost was not an anomaly then “everyone should also experience a mighty rushing wind and cloven tongues of fire. But of course those phenomena are rarely if ever mentioned today.”
Pentecost was an unrepeatable instance in the transition from the old to the new covenant. God chose to baptize his church this way once and for all. Nothing in Scripture suggests that the events or the way God chose to conduct them are promised for Christians today. To believe so would be to purely assume so apart from Scripture.
to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. (1 Corinthians 12:10)
And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? But earnestly desire the higher gifts. (1 Corinthians 12:28-30)
If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. (1 Corinthians 13:1)
Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. (1 Corinthains 13:8)
See also the entire chapter of 1 Corinthians 14
1 Corinthians 12-14 are chapters dealing specifically with how the church was to use the gift of tongues. MacArthur points out that much of what Paul writes in these chapters restricts the use of tongues – it was written to reprove the Corinthians for their misuse of the gift.
Paul uses the word “tongues”. The Greek is glossa which means the actual tongue (organ) or language. Paul is talking about a gift of actual languages (Acts 2:16, 8-11). Nowhere in the Bible does the gift of tongues refer to anything other than spoken languages. Also, the Greek word dialektos is used in Acts. Unbelievers heard the gospel in their own dialect at Pentecost.
In 1 Corinthians 13:8 Paul states that the gift of tongues will be done away with. The Greek word pauo is used here which means “cease permanently”. Paul’s point was that love will last forever, but this gift of tongues will cease therefore it’s much more important to use and express love (even at that time).
The biblical truth about the spiritual gifts of tongues is that it was a gift bestowed to the apostles and then some disciples by God through the baptism of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost within the apostolic age, carried through the transition from the old to the new covenant, in order to assist in carrying out the great commission. This was a gift, as prophesied (Isaiah 28:11-12), that would allow gentiles to hear the gospel in their own languages. It was a sign and a wonder, a testament to the authenticity of the gospel for that time and recorded in the Bible for all time. This gift then ceases at the end of the apostolic era (1 Corinthians 13:8), the end of the transitioning and is not in use today as it would be irrelevant – Pentecost has come and gone, the church has already formed.
The counterfeit gift, glossolalia
Since we now know that the spiritual gift of tongues is an actual language (verified with Scripture), what then do we make of what’s being heard today? Glossolalia literally means unintelligible, meaningless speech or nonsense. And that’s exactly what it is. Worse yet, it cannot be found in Scripture; however, it can be found throughout church history, but never accepted. The only place in history where glossolalia is commonly found and accepted is in paganism.
The most notable group to have claimed to speak in tongues were the Montanists. In fact, they were the only people claiming this during the first 500 years of the church. Montanus, the leader, was a heretic who believed he was a prophet sent by God. Montanism was based heavily on glossolalia and prophetic revelation. This particular sect is also a big part of charismatic church heritage (although most charismatics don’t know this) and modern-day Pentecostalism is sometimes also called Neo-Montansim.
Augustine, one of the early church’s greatest fathers, decreed that Montanism was tantamount to paganism. He also opposed glossolalia as the true biblical gift of tongues saying this:
How then, brethren, because he that is baptized in Christ, and believes on Him, does not now speak in the tongues of all nations, are we not to believe that he has received the Holy Ghost? God forbid that our heart should be tempted by this faithlessness. … Why is it that no man speaks in the tongues of all nations? Because the Church itself now speaks in the tongues of all nations. Before, the Church was in one nation, where it spoke in the tongues of all. By speaking in the tongues of all, it signified what was to come to pass; that by growing among the nations, it would speak in the tongues of all.
Then there was Pentecostalism thanks to Charles Fox Parham at the turn of the 20th century. In 1900 he opened Bethel College. He became enthralled by the riddle of what the evidence was for the baptism of the Holy Spirit. When Parham was scheduled for a preaching engagement in another city he charged his class with finding the answer to his riddle when he left. Upon his return they had decided unanimously – speaking in tongues. His college went bankrupt shortly after, but Parham, in the excitement of the finding, started Pentecostalism. It survived the century.
The charismatic movement was born in the 1960′s in large part on top of Pentecostalism. It has bled over into many non-denominational sects and continues to mutate even today.
Conclusion
How could a few charismatic denominations and many non-denominational charismatic churches (only formed in the last century) hold fast to something that has no scriptural backing? They have simply not applied proper exegesis to the Bible or are completely ignoring the proper exegesis in order to keep enjoying their theatrics.
Glossolalia has been around for 2000 years, but it has never been accepted as the true biblical gift of tongues by the church because it’s not possible to interpret the Bible in any way that lends itself to its truth. To practice it today is to foolishly ignore 2000 years of sound biblical doctrine and biblical interpretation in favor of doctrine that cannot be verified by Scripture and at it’s heart is only experiential.
This post serves as a summary explanation for the Scripture concering the authentic gift of tongues and the counterfeit versions we see today. It in no way is a thorough account of any one aspect on the matter. My hope was to straight-talk the matter for those who are confused. For further reading and exploration please read Charismatic Chaos by John MacArthur. The sheer amount of research that went into that book combined with the citations referenced in the back are worth the price alone.
Glad you went forward with this post. Its a good mixture of personal experience, Biblical support, and historical evidence. All 3 are necessary in understanding the heaviness of this subject (though if any were to be discarded, it would be personal experience. However, in this case I believe it is helpful to have first hand experience in this type of thing. I can testify to having similar experiences and it was hard to read some of what you went through because I had the exact same struggles)
What i want to know then, is where do the false tongues come from? What i mean is, take the documentary Jesus Camp, there are children, far too incapable of making this up. In tear filled cries to God, they speak in tongues. What creates that speech for them, then? Take any person who does tongues, are we to suggest they are backstage, memorizing lines??? I just need to know the source of where tongues comes from, if not from God. And furthermore, how does it not come from God if everyone is proclaiming Christ’s name???
Very good post though, cleared up many suspicions, confirmed some things for me, but…i still want to understand where it stirs up in man, woman and child, for them to suddenly speak “it”
my experiences in churches from 1978-1997 have been completely confused mixes of non-denominational, non-specific church teaching, with special guests like the ones you described. I recall being “slain in the spirit” where you are prayed over and you fall backwards and lie on the floor, just like you see in Benny Hinns old tv show, i just recall lying on the floor, just as you described, feeling out of place, feeling like i missed something, and i was unable to be a normal Christian. At this age, early teen, i was discovering issues with myself that were troubling, because of lack of education, lack of my parents explaining things to me, when this sermon was over, i got off of the floor, looked around, and the service ended, everyone walked out, i just left the church, and my mom and dad didn’t even follow me up on it, we all just pretended like it never happened. Now, if my mom and dad thought it was useful, or if they thought it was bs, either way, wouldn’t you think they would come to me and say “Im sorry” or “How did you feel”?
My experience with charismatic things like this one…left me feeling like i was a confused and unworthy Christian, programming into my mind, til even this day, the idea that if something works for someone….i might be unlucky, and it wont work for me. Call it anxiety. Call it whatever you want…but I will NEVER go back to a church that practices these things!!!
I’m wary to say where false tongues come from. I think a lot of it is psychological. Its a known fact that people in psychologically straining situations have found themselves rambling in “unknown tongues”. To say that these kinds of enviroments are emotionally straining ona person would be an understatement. All 3 of us witnessed it first hand. Secondly the question begs to be asked, if it is from God, then why is it seen in other religions or paganism? Thirdly, why doesn’t everyone experience it or every church have SOME people who break out in tongues? Why only these churches? I know what THEY would say (its because they’re open to it…was Paul open to what the Spirit wanted to do when God knocked him on his ass on the road to Damascus though? Come on…)
I think Justin could testify that you CAN teach young children to do what you saw in Jesus Camp. If my mom can teach them the Apostle’s Creed, surely we can teach them to jibber jabber!
The counterfeit gift of tongues comes from learned experience. Those kids in Jesus Camp have heard that done by the elders at their churches before they ever tried it.
It’s not uncommon for charismatic churches to have adult and children Sunday school curriculum to teach its congregates how to speak in tongues. And I’m talking literally coloring-books that teach them. That’s not a joke.
If this gift was truly of God there would be no reason to teach it. But that’s not the deciding factor, that’s just common sense. The deciding factor is Scripture alone.
Yeah like I said, if my mom could teach 4 year olds the Apostle’s Creed and what it means, these people could get their kids into the “shouldaboughtahonda” stuff at an early age.
The one thing I’m really wary to say is that false tongues is a demonic power. Simply because to do so I’d have to question these people’s salvation. For a true believer, no demonic force has any power over them. Thats a big reason why I think its more psychologocial than anything else. Psychology seems to support the idea as well.
Its a hard thing to deal with. What do you say to someone who has an exeprience regularly. They genuinly feel it brings them closer to God. Its hard to be so cold and say, “yo its false!” but I think as Justin has shown, there’s just not Biblical support for it at all. Experience can’t trump theology. If we or someone we know have experiences that don’t line up w/ solid Biblical theology, we can’t question our theology, we must question the experience.
The other question I have Stephen is, why are churches who are in this stuff, for the most part, a part of a larger theological dumpster? With Jesus Camp, it was all revolving around guys like Ted Haggard and stuff like that. Joel Osteen, Teg Haggard, all these guys are who pretty much fuel the movement. Absolute rubbish.
@ Andy – You asked some great questions here… particularly the one pertaining to other churches not doing it, like our church for example. Why its only those who believe in it that do it. I guess what i still wrestle with in this post is, the argument of straining situations. I have never felt strained, and i guess you could conveniently say that is why i never fit into it, but…seriously, i don’t know if i can settle with that being the end all, to this point. Im suspicious still, that something is steering the spirit in the room. Good or bad, remains to be seen, well…what i mean to say is, i can’t simply accuse mental state, i think there is more to it…i discern something is up with it, beyond just memorizing lines, or being so stressed, etc.
@ Justin – Unless you have personally seen the epidemic of children being sat down, and memorizing lines, and you can prove that the speech of tongues, the very sentences, are repeated sentences, etc…than i cannot put my full stock into this point. I stand on the idea that “something spiritual” is happening. Is it possible that we can tap into the tongues, but perhaps are not supposed to, and that is why we discern it to be wrong??? Is it literally impossible to be genuine??? If you can say it is impossible, biblically (You may have, i didn’t quite get that we cant from your post, but rather it was by law, that we shouldn’t maybe im wrong) and you can say that there is evidence that the tongues are rehearsed, etc…i may feel better about my questioning.
@ both – just so you know, i have discernment, and i feel it has been a force in holding me close to Christ, even in a decade of being unfed, running from church, etc…i just know its the Lord, and i know i can trust it. Perhaps we can study discernment, and be more clear about it, etc…but all this to say, I discern something is wrong with these practices, so don’t assume i am attempting to disprove your well studied post, i am just not completely satisfied with what i am questioning about it. Also, i do not say that to suggest just because i know its discernment, that i am instantly right, i just trust that God steered me out of that situation for a reason, and the way we view scriptures teaching, in the church we worship at now…is a very real, very possible Jesus, who still has so much “mystery” to be explored, without the bells and whistles of the last “100 years worth of invention”
I guess “strained” is the wrong word. I was trying to express the idea of an emotionally explosive enviroment. Maybe that helps? You know that the worship services in these churches are pretty much designed to get your emotions going.
I’m trying to do some research on tongues being taught, but I KNOW Justin said in his AG church they had classes on it.
By the way, here’s the AG’s reason to why we don’t speak in tongues…
“Spiritual gifts operate only with human availability. While the gifts are supernatural both in source and operation, they require willing and obedient hearts through which they might find expression”
As someone who believes in Election, that should raise the hairs on our arms! God’s workings aren’t dependent on human “availability”. He will do what He wills regardless of our willingness! Again…look at Paul!
Oh another story! When I was at Petra on a retreat, the speaker of the retreat was in my dorm room. We were talking about tongues. He said he believes that Satan decieves people into believing the gift doesn’t exist anymore. His words were, “if he (meaning Satan) can’t stop people from coming to Christ, he’s going to try to stop them from opperating on all 4 wheels”. My reply was, “I disagree. My mother is one of the most Godly people I know. Her knowledge of the Word of God far excedes most of the people I run into here at Petra. No one would dare say she’s not running on ‘all four wheels’.” He didn’t have a response.
I have firsthand experience of the church trying to teach people to speak in tongues. In addition to that there are many books and videos you can buy that teach how to speak in tongues.
The bottom line is that we’re talking about something that doesn’t exist anywhere in the Bible. The true biblical gift of tongues was an actual language. What’s being performed today is not an actual language and that has been verified by language professionals.
One has the gift of discernment because they know the Bible. In other words, knowing Scripture is what enables people to discern. If it’s not in the Bible one will not be able to discern it. The gift of the discernment is not spiritual in the sense that it enables you to recognize the unknown, but rather spiritual because it’s a gift from God.
There are Christians out there that believe they have the ability to sniff out demons in a room or even ghosts. That can’t be found in Scripture so therefore you can be sure that what they are doing is not the spiritual gift of discernment but rather what can be known today as “ghost-busting”.
It’s really very simple. Glossolalia is not in the Bible. Therefore it cannot be discerned. I think the people who practice glossolalia think they are doing the right thing, but obviously misguided as to what the Bible actually says. They project whatever personal feeling they get from this act onto God. Glossolalia is supposed worship to God, but people are offering something that clearly God does not require. Even the true biblical gift of tongues (the languages of all nations) were not used to worship God only in a corporate setting – they were used to preach the gospel for the great commission.
Imagine what it would look like if glossolalia-speakers did that today. You’re shopping in the vegetable isle at the supermarket and some charismatic comes out of nowhere and just starts spewing glossolalia at you. Whoa.
At the end of the day people chase experience. It’s exciting. They want to feel something from God. They have a tendency to believe they need to be involved. They don’t. It’s selfish and it’s not what God requires of us.
I want to clear up about glossolalia being discerned. We can use our discernment to say it’s not of God because we know it doesn’t exist in Scripture. We cannot use our discernment to say person A is doing it right, but person B is missing something. Both person A and B are missing something alright, the Word of God.
Wow I looked up glossolalia online and found a few interesting things.
Felicitas Goodman (a liguist) did a study on a bunch of Pentecostal churches in North and Central America. She found that the “tongues” spoken there matched exactly non-Christian rituals performed in Africa, Borneo, Indonesia and Japan. She found that there was no difference at all. Amazing.
In 2006 they scanned a bunch of brains while people were speaking in tongues. There was a drop in activity in the language part of the brains but an increase in the emotional centers of the brain.
I also want to add that were this “glossolalia” from the Holy Spirit, I don’t think it would be identical to the “language” found in pagan, non-Christian rituals. I believe there’d be quite the contrast. I would use Moses as the example. While Pharaoh’s magicians could in some ways mirror the miracles Moses was doing, when God worked through Moses and did a true miracle, it was evident to all who witnessed it where the power was coming from.
@ both – So you 2 do not believe that we can sense demonic presence? A Christian cannot see or feel demonic presence and cannot see manifestations??? Correct me if i am wrong, but I have been first hand with what i feel are demonic visitations, in the past…and i was sleeping, something leaped onto me and woke me up, i was not worked up, i thought it was my brother, and when i opened my eyes and saw nothing there, a second later feeling it get off of me as clearly as a humans weight…what do you expect me to believe?
I have seen demonic possession in my life as well, which of course is in the bible, but…this type of thinking, at least to me, seems to sway from the idea of the spiritual realm being at work in both spectrums, despite salvation, or especially without it.
In my life time, there are 2 things i do not question, 1 is that Jesus is the trinitarian son of God, and 2nd, the enemy is real and his works are felt, physically.
This is something that sways somewhat away from tongues conversation, but Justin made comment about Christians who can see and hear and feel demons in a room, and how its unbiblical. I find that hard to believe.
@ Andy – interesting about tongues being interpreted as rituals, please explain
I believe in spiritual warfare, but again its a subject that the Charismatics have failed to teach properly. I’m not sure what this has to do w/ tongues. We have to make sure we don’t give the devil more credit than he is due. For instance, I get sleep paralisis. Maybe you’ve heard the legend of the “old hag”? Basically I wake up in the night and it feels like there’s weight on me. I can’t move. I can open my eyes slightly but that’s it. I’m not saying that’s what you experienced Stephen but your story made me think of it. There are people that I’ve met who have shared this experience and called it a demonic attack. Now, its completely medical. My mind comes out of REM sleep before my body does. I’m alert, I’m awake but my body is still “asleep” and that’s why I can’t move. Not only that, my mind can wander between sleep and awake so if I’m dreaming and this happens, I may actually see things in the room (this only happened once where I actually saw things). It happens to millions of people across the globe. Its not demonic but many in the Chaz camp would give credit to Satan’s buds for doin this.
There is definitely a demonic presence in the world and I believe it. I believe it has absolutely no hold over a believer though and there’s no Scriptural evidence to say otherwise. I am indwelt with Christ and the Holy Spirit. No room for darkness there.
This thinking doesn’t sway away from the Spiritual realm. It brings balance I believe to what many have abused, out of ignorance of course.
OH sorry I guess I didn’t answer your questions. Yes I believe a believer can sense demonic things. I believe in demons being cast out (of non-believers of course). Ask the guys in the band. When they went down to Mexico a demon possessed man came into their church and it took like, 6 guys to hold him down.
I believe its a rarity though and A LOT of Christians walk around acting like its the norm and it happens to them every day.
We’re definitely getting away from the tongues conversation. Is there anymore questions concerning that?
The problem I see with spirituality is that Christians seem inclined to believe it’s more along the lines of Hollywood than the actual Bible. Well, the majority of the world would tend to believe this. Most people think spirituality is Ghost Hunters, The Blair Witch Project and whatever else our special effects teams can dream up. Granted there are some creepy things in the Bible (e.g. Legion), the truth is much of this stuff cannot be found in the Bible.
I think concerning New Testament Christian living we see persecution as something far more dangerous than some type of mystical demonic attack. I’d almost be willing to say the persecution could possibly be the demonic attack.
I don’t believe in anything like what we’ve seen in The Exorcist. When you see the demon possessed girl on screen it shakes you, it defines a sense of pure evil. I believe that the same sense evil exists as powerful as it was on screen, but it doesn’t come in that form.
Have you ever heard a man talk so horribly to his wife that it made you angry, or embarrassed for her or sick even? I believe that is demonic-possession; when people embrace sin, finding a twisted sense of joy in it or getting off on the affects of it. That’s more demonic to me than the on-screen appearance of Regan in The Exorcist.
I agree with Andy that we’re indwelt with the Holy Spirit. No darkness can take up residence in our hearts.
This is all a very gray area for me personally until I have time to research the Bible on it and consult the writings of our church fathers. There’s just too much room for error in talking about this. I think that’s due to the fact that charismatic churches will tell you almost anything on this subject and say it’s true coupled with the fact that Hollywood exists. It’s too dangerous for me to talk out of context here.
Stephen, maybe that’s something you could research and teach us about. I’m sure there are men who wrote on this type of thing. Can we find writings from Augustine, Luther, Calvin, Spurgeon, Sproul, Keller, Lewis, anybody?
In the coming weeks I’ll be touching down on prophecy and miracles.
Yo honestly Augustine and Luther both felt tormented by the “dark side” before their true conversions. The “Luther” film even depicts some of his struggles.
We have to be so careful to not play down spiritual warfare and stuff. Its real, its out there. Yes Hollywood has glorified it, made it into something spectacular, but it doesn’t mean its not real. Like I said, the guys in my band saw a demon possession first hand. I have no Biblical reason to think their experience contradicts the Bible or history. However, the “exorcism” was nothing like what it is in the movies. It was speak the name of Christ and the demons fled. You know, like in the Bible?
The problem though, is as Calvin saw it. He said we’ve given so much power to the devil that we’ve seemed to forget about sin. We’ve made him as powerful as God in our minds and culture and we forget that the REAL problem is our sin nature. I get behind that.
I feel tormented by the “dark side” too (I’m already converted), but it doesn’t only come around at night, creeping in the shadows or show up on an energy meter. And I’m not playing spiritual warfare down. Therein lies the problem with this. I get the notion that because I refuse to believe in hokey shit that I’m somehow playing down spiritual warfare. Don’t you think that has something to do with the heavy connotation the charismatic church and our culture has put on spiritual warfare?
As a Bible-believing Christian I simply cannot get away with ignoring how serious spiritual warfare, prayer and sin actually are!
I’ve heard all sorts of people talk about all sorts of demon possessions, times they had in the dark and exorcisms. It’s all the same, unverified and unaccounted for in Scripture. My personal belief is that it’s people making it into something it’s really not. Of course, I have no evidence to back this up (beyond the Bible) just as everyone’s mysterious stories have no evidence or backing.
We are so prone to project what we want to believe. Our imaginations are so creative and endless. Our hearts are so easily confused and swayed. I don’t know what else to say.
@ Andy – What you describe is very different, i would not argue that it is medical, and i would always explore that option first. It is true that people chase this stuff…even simple things like saying “My father died, and i still see him in my dreams, i still sense his presence, i still believe he is watching over me” that always strikes me as worshiping the dead. No, my situation is different, for one…it had no power over me. I recall saying “Leave in Jesus name” or something to the affect…and that is when it stopped. I know it is natural, in a world of movies and story telling and because we do not see these things in the every day flesh, that we fear them, but it is important to know your spiritual position, which is behind God, but in front of the devil!
@ Justin – Ok, no Exorcist…but kinda. My experiences were a mild version of that. No head spinning, but definitely speaking in different voices, eyes changing (no not red glowing like the movies, but i have seen blood shot and doubled in size, like they were going to explode) vomiting, insane strength, and accusations….these were things i witnessed, and watched my family go through with a particular foster child in the 80s. I have NEVER questioned it since then, and i guess that is why the charismatic thing was just natural for my family. That does not excuse it of course, but it certainly made “weird things” easy to swallow. But…as i got older and things got weirder, and i watched churches split, and i laid there on the floor, not once, but several times, “pretending” that God did a work in my life…i just had enough of it all!!! I wore Jesus proudly on the outside, but put his law in the back seat for most of my life. I have many stories like this one. I recall praying silently and having a drunk man screaming at me to stop, and that “he knew what i was doing” and even when i was behind him, and everyone was in front of him trying to talk to him, he kept turning behind me and saying “Stop doing that” that man later started talking about satanism, and practicing the occult.
These things simply cannot be ignored.
@ Justin – you say you don’t downplay spiritual warfare, but then you say you hear all the accounts of things, and its all unaccounted for. What is certain, is that what i have witnessed was not an emotionally unstable example, or a show, it was real demonic manifestation. These things are documented and there is proof of them.
There are things like that in scripture, too, but going strictly on tongues i could see more your point.
So, i guess hopefully you were not arguing so much that point?!?!
Yo in the book of Job there’s a part where they talk about a spirit flying over a dude’s bed. Its kind of creepy. It scared the hell out of me for weeks when I read it as a kid.
The thing we can’t downplay is that Satan is at work in this world, deceiving people, ect. and his minions are messing w/ people. Demon possession is real. Its not on the “charismatic” side of things to believe in that. We see living examples in Scripture of it happening. I don’t want to downplay that just because a bunch of idiots are more influenced by Hollywood movies than they are the Word of God.
The other thing is, there’s a whole side of humanity that has opened themselves up to some very dark things. Dabbling in the occult, Satanism, ect. If you ever study Irish history for example, the things the Druids were able to do was definitely demonic. I believe that the examples of Pharoah’s magicians in Exodus were demonic shows of power (which is why the Lord flexed His muscles there).
We can’t deny that Satan and his minions are at work in this world and they will take every advantage they can get to hinder the growth of the Gospel. Shit does happen out there (and it happened in Scriptures t00) and there’s nothing in the Bible that tells us that the devil will ease up his efforts any more in our day than he did in Christ’s day or in O.T. days.
I should clarify something. “Possession” is a modern term. I don’t believe that demons can actually ENTER and possess a person any more than I believe an angel can do the same. I think “oppression” is a better term to use. The ESV does say “demon possessed” but it has the following footnote:
“Greek daimonizomai; also verse 33; elsewhere rendered oppressed by demons”
@ Andy – I use the term “demonized” actually. Oppression too.
I would agree with your above statements, there is something to be said about the encounters of myself, and people i trust who do not make this kinda stuff up. I also find it fascinating that for the most part any demonic encounter, that is described, for decades, from guests on tv, to books, to my own personal experiences…they tend to all describe similar things, i notice there are a few demons in existence that are often times, described by many different people, at different times.
New post?
Thought about it Justin. The early church was actually pretty silent on this kind of stuff and they also had a lot of superstitions going along with it. You see it in Roman Catholicism to this day.
Stephen its hard to validate theology by experience. You know how much I don’t form theologies around what people claim to experience, no matter how trust worthy those people are. How much is really demonic workings and how much is medical reasons, our imaginations, or superstitions influencing our judgement? Those are valid things to consider. The Dark Ages blamed everything on the Devil because they were ignorant people. I think the same could be said of many in the Charismatic circles. That being said…
The Bible is full of the “dark side” working. Demon oppression, men working counterfit miracles such as Pharoah’s magicians and things like that, examples of witchcraft, its all in the Bible. Like I said before, I have no Biblical reason to believe that its stopped since Bible times. I feel like I might be riding a fence between Stephen and Justin’s views in this? I don’t know.
I don’t discredit the supernatural and weird shit happening. The Spiritual realm is real. How it influences our world is a gray area.
@ Andy – your not riding a fence between me and Justin, you already said you believe in demonic works.
I am well aware of emotionalism, but i am talking about a whole different situation. How do we judge it?
Well, for starters, i am talking about a manifestation, a transformation of body. A physical change, where the person speaks accusations, and speaks in different voices, and attempts to use verbal threat, and to say anything unholy to pervert those who are there in prayer. I have seen these things with my own eyes. I have seen people demonized, where it is no longer them speaking. Im sorry, but this just cannot be disputed, not opinion. I know there is a line to draw in the sand, i get that there are too many people chasing after it, but there is also discernment, lets talk about discernment on this blog. Id like to hear where the bible talks about men and women of Christ, who are given discernment, that “censor” to the spiritual realms, and seeing or hearing or feeling the demonic acts around them. This i need more bible on, because i simply cannot see my experiences as just a fluke medical thing, but by the tongues of demons, i have heard them speak accusations and threats to my family.
Lets do discernment!!! Thats my vote.
That would be hard. Discernment is something we’re all commanded to show, and I’m not sure its a “spiritual gift”. I think the Holy Spirit gives it to us all.
Not sure what i think about that statement….not with a world filled with fundamentalists and emerging church folk
Well…you know. Using discernment is different than being told to use discernment.
I really get a big chuckle in hearing from all those pretend, rather hot air speaking in tongues experts who themselves admit they cannot speak in tongues.
http://thenonconformer.wordpress.com/2009/02/06/the-boogeyman-called-false-tongues/
Excellent use of mockery, sir. And you’re wrong, but thanks for commenting anyway. Have a nice day.
“As of the year 2,000 a.d., 537 million born-again Christians speak in tongues. This is 30% to 40% of the Body of Christ.”
That is a large percentage…but not as large as the portion that does NOT speak in tongues. I guess God finds it appropriate to only bless less than half His body w/ the gift of tongues.
We’re talking about statistical data for something that cannot be empirically proven. It simply means those that say yes or no cannot be verified. If we rely on this data to support the existence of glossolalia we suggest that in the case that tongues does exist in the form of a private prayer language between our heart and the Holy Spirit, that Christians do not obtain the ability to fake the gift by simply mimicking those around them; we’re essentially saying it’s not possible for a Christian to sin in this area which is complete bollocks.
I read his post as well and I think we’re talking about a difference of interpretation on the subject of faith as a foundation to our differences concerning the gifts of the Spirit. We do not believe that one’s faith is a measure of one’s spiritual gifting. This guy also believes that a false gift of tongues would be the direct result of demonic possession (e.g. The Exorcist), something else we do not loosely buy in to as the a word study would prove the word possession to be nonexistent in the text. In fact, the ESV council will be voting to take that English word out of their translation. Basically if you’ve ever faked talking in tongues you’re demon possessed. Now I’d like to see the statistical data on that!
His other arguments are what I would call opinion or grossly construed misinterpretations where he takes quotes from our early Church fathers and elders and reads into them something about tongues that’s really not there in the first place. He does this either by suggesting that every time they say tongues they mean glossolalia (which there is no evidence for) or by writing about the Scriptures concerning gifts. The last one cracks me up … so just because a Church father or elder writes about the Scripture that mentions tongues it means that tongues exist today and that it’s glossolalia? I don’t think so.
The hard truth is this guy wouldn’t be able to show us one passage of word study in the Bible, Greek or Hebrew, that says anything about the word tongues meaning anything other than an actual human language (e.g. Spanish, French, etc.). There’s absolutely nothing in the Bible to suggest tongues is a private prayer language between our heart and the Holy Spirit. The meaning of the verse(s) they would hold up as evidence to build a case are verses that you won’t be able to find our early Church fathers and elders holding up as evidence in the same way – it simply cannot be certified biblically or historically.
I respect the Pentecostal doctrine on this matter much more than Montgomery. At least they have the balls to say they rely on experience and not Scripture for these beliefs and practices concerning tongues and their doctrine of subsequence.
Yeah statistics are indeed sticky. We can get a general idea based on how many people worship in Charismatic and Pentacostal churches each week across the world and indeed that number is massive. That in no way backs this kind of claim though.
“Basically if you’ve ever faked talking in tongues you’re demon possessed. Now I’d like to see the statistical data on that!”
Yeah that’s not a claim any of us here have EVER made. I personally have always looked to the psychological and emotional side of things.
“His other arguments are what I would call opinion or grossly construed misinterpretations where he takes quotes from our early Church fathers and elders and reads into them something about tongues that’s really not there in the first place.”
Where did you see his historical section? I wanted to read it because I had this strong suspicion. Those in the Charismatic/Pentecostal camp have often abused Church history in this manor. History is as tricky as statistics though. Could I every say that those who claim that the gifts ceased after the death of the apostles and that the Church never practiced them at all are 100% right? No…but I’m 99% sure from studying and reading history that they are right. History can be manipulated like statistics though, to back whatever theological claim you’re making. The Catholics do it, the Eastern Orthodox do it, the Anabaptists do it, and even us Reformed folks do it. I don’t think anyone does it with malice (maybe I’m naive), but we must be cautious of it.
Biblically though, you’re right. Nothing in Scripture supports a “personal prayer language”…although from this guy’s article he seems to be talking about tongues in a liturgical sense, having the interpreter and everything. I applaud him for at least recognizing Paul’s guidelines around requiring interpretation. The question is, in a service where everyone is speaking the same language, what is the purpose of tongues? In his example of Billy Graham, first the guy got up and went off in tongues, then the interpreter translated into English, then Billy Graham confirmed it. It would have been less time consuming if Billy delivered the message in the first place!
Here’s the Montgomery articles that this guy is drawing from …
http://brothermel.com/tonguesthroughoutchurchhistory.aspx
http://brothermel.com/theboogeymancalledfalsetongues.aspx
Okay I actually read that before. Funny enough, I’ve read some of the works that he quotes (mainly Justin Martyr and Irenaes) so I was giggling quite a bit at the out of context quotes. Furthermore, the works quoted are not obscure works. Any historian making the claim of historical cessationalism would be familiar with such works and quotes.
Here is a WONDERFUL article on the whole thing, including commentaries on Irenaes’s quotes. It’s by the great Presbyterian scholar B.B. Warfield, one of J. Gresham Machen’s mentors.
http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/articles/full.asp?id=40%7C%7C74
since the Bible doesn’t tell us the steps and actions WE must take to receive the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues…this guy lays out a plan of action that in only 5 min. you can receive the Spirit.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8208398286724828918&ei=Z1-RS4PwJ5u2qwLr5rzLAg&q=speaking+in+tongues&hl=en#docid=659195514057051148
Noooooo. Dude now that you’re not working you’re going to become an internet junkie.
Funny thing is, my old church used to show videos and stuff like that.
I have 5 tabs going at once…
I understand that…..there are a number of things the Bible doesn’t clarify for us, so we must clarify them on behalf of God…..we are his word in this generation.
That’s a joke by the way….i don’t believe that hahaha i sounded like a heretic. I am like Paul and here are 5 steps in five minutes to become a better you hahaha. wow
Someone asked where does this counterfeit tongues come from. Am writing from my mobile so I will make it brief. Glosolalia as a form of tongues is directly from the devil. This counterfeit has a part to play in the last great conflict and that’s why the enemy of souls have so much fastened this error in the minds of Christians. Why has this been allowed to continue without strong biblical backing, why are the leaders of popular churches pushing this false system of worship.?
The things you have described as taking place in Indiana, [These comments were made in connection with the "Holy Flesh" Movement at the Indiana camp meeting of 1900. For further details, see Selected Messages 2:31-39.] the Lord has shown me would take place just before the close of probation. Every uncouth thing will be demonstrated. There will be shouting, with drums, music, and dancing. The senses of rational beings will become so confused that they cannot be trusted to make right decisions…. – {LDE 159.1}
The majority of Christians has already been fastened in this snare and now the enemy has set his sights on Gods remnant church.
Let us give no place to strange exercisings, which really take the mind away from the deep movings of the Holy Spirit. God’s work is ever characterized by calmness and dignity.-Selected Messages 2:42 (1908). – {LDE 159.3}
Fanaticism, false excitement, false talking in tongues, and noisy exercises have been considered gifts which God has placed in the church. Some have been deceived here. The fruits of all this have not been good. “Ye shall know them by their fruits.” Fanaticism and noise have been considered special evidences of faith. Some are not satisfied with a meeting unless they have a powerful and happy time. They work for this and get up an excitement of feeling. But the influence of such meetings is not beneficial. When the happy flight of feeling is gone they sink lower than before the meeting because their happiness did not come from the right source. – {LDE 159.4}
Is God interested in the work if the flesh or the work if the spirit? If the test of the spirit be applied all who are true must confess this is not the spirit of Christ.
Shalom